Posted by: JJ Berg | 2008 April 9

Speak It Keith!

No doubt by now you’ve heard by now about Illinois State Rep. Monique Davis and her disgusting rant against atheist Rob Sherman, in the halls of government no less. Chicago Tribune coverage here and audio is here. But Keith Olbermann just gave this the biggest coverage it’s gotten thus far. I can’t embed it here, or at least don’t know how to, so here’s the link. I’ve always been a fan of Keith (and all the bias that comes with him, in fact mostly because of the bias), but I really appreciated this.

Update: It’s up on youtube so now I can embed

Posted in Atheism, Religion | Tags: , , , , ,

« Root of All Evil?
Richard Dawkins on Paula Zahn Now »

Responses

What’s not to like….she spoke the truth….go Monique. Atheist don’t believe in God….and don’t anyone else to either. Since they are miserable and have no hope..they want everyone else around them to be like them. I pray God will have mercy on the lost and unbelieving sinners of the world.

By: Muse on 2008 April 9
at 03:06 UTC

Well, for one, her comments fly entirely in the face of everything this country stands for. The reason many people came to the colonies in the 1600s was to escape religious persecution in Europe. The very first amendment to our constitution guarantees that no individual shall have their freedom of religion abridged by the government. This is exactly what she seems to be aiming for. I hate how everyone and their grandmother gets branded “un-American” all the time, but these comments really are un-American.

I can’t count the number of times I’ve heard the atheists are “miserable and have no hope” statement. Well, I know a lot of them, and by and large we are not miserable and hopeless people, we’re actually a rather cheery bunch, when we’re not dealing with religious people trying to make us believe what they do. Yes, that’s right, you’re the ones by and large trying to make us like you (we really really really appreciate the ones who don’t try to force religion down our throats). Certainly I think people would be better off if they were atheists and relied on reason to get through their lives than reliance on some invisible sky fairy. Definitely would’ve worked out much better for this poor girl. But you have a right to believe whatever you want to, and I respect that right, even if I don’t agree with what you believe.

And then there’s the “Land of Lincoln” comment. Maybe Rep. Davis should do her homework. In 1846, during his first Senate race, Mr. Lincoln was accused by his opponent, popular evangelical Methodist hellfire and brimstone preacher, Rev. Peter Cartwright, of being an atheist, a charge which, to my knowledge, he never rebutted. Lincoln believed strongly that religion belongs firmly out of the public spotlight, and that personal beliefs should remain personal.

He likely wasn’t an atheist, but but probably believed in some sort of Providence. It seems unlikely that he was really a Christian in any sense, and he would have absolutely detested Monique Davis’s hateful remarks.

By: jjberg on 2008 April 9
at 04:45 UTC

jjberg,

I am reminded of this scripture after reading your reply:

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 ¶Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

By: Muse on 2008 April 10
at 00:41 UTC

Normally I would ban scripture cause it serves no purpose in a debate, but I don’t exactly get much traffic here so instead I’ll just point out why quoting scripture is useless.

I’m an atheist.

There, that’s it. Pretty much by definition I think the Bible is a bunch of hooey. Why would the book of a god and religion I don’t believe in have any sway with me? I think it’s safe to say you’re probably not a Muslim, so I’m sure you put no stock in the condemnations of non Muslims in the Qur’an, so why should you think biblical scripture would hold any weight with me?

By: jjberg on 2008 April 10
at 01:52 UTC

jjberg,

take a look at this verse: 1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The natural man is pertaining to the unsaved person. I pray God will give you faith to believe.

By: Muse on 2008 April 10
at 02:46 UTC

You obviously didn’t actually consider a single word I said. Scripture doesn’t mean anything. Words written 2000 years ago that don’t have any solid evidence to back them up are just that, words. I’ve never seen any credible scientific proof for the existence of God or the validity of the Bible, and until I do I’ll remain skeptical.

P.S. My comment policy states that quoting scripture will get your comments sent to the dungeon. I made an exception and even altered the policy because I thought maybe I could make a point, but it seems to have fallen on deaf ears. Stop quoting scripture and bring some substance to the discussion or I’ll just delete your comments.

By: jjberg on 2008 April 10
at 03:18 UTC

I thought you said you atheist were happy…cheery people? Please….you fool no one except yourself. I am the only person to read and respond to your blog…..the only one……so…go ahead and delete it….talk to yourself. I will still pray for you because I know you are searching for truth…and Jesus said his truth will set you free.

take care

By: Muse on 2008 April 10
at 12:36 UTC

I think making a judgment of a person’s overall state of happiness based on a few snippets of print during a debate is a pretty terrible way to go about it. I’m sure if you got to know me you’d change your opinion.

I get enough traffic through here to make me feel like it’s worth it. I don’t do this with the goal of reaching tons of people, it’s just nice to put my thoughts down on paper (er, you know what I mean), if people read them, great!

Yeah, when Jesus shows up in my room and wants to have a chat with me then maybe we’ll talk…

By: jjberg on 2008 April 10
at 13:56 UTC

jjberg,

I don’t really view this as a debate….just two people discussing their religious beliefs. You seem like a person who has a lot going for them in life….but at the same time it seems like you are searching for meaning in life. I also think you have an open mind about things…or else you would not be having this conversation.

I think it would also be safe to say that at some point in time you have read God’s word and found no relevance in it as it pertains to your life…….how else could you come to the conclusion that there is no God…..or you have no “faith” in God. Faith is what atheist lack when it comes to God. God’s word teaches us that faith comes by hearing and reading the word of God. If I am wrong….let me know.

By: Muse on 2008 April 10
at 16:39 UTC

Fair enough, discussion it is.

I think your characterization of me as seeking meaning is based on an assumption that because I don’t believe in God I must therefore be seeking meaning in life.

I don’t believe that there is any inherent or divine meaning to life. I believe that we, and all life on this planet, have come to be through the completely natural process of evolution by natural selection. I do not know why the universe came to be or why it exists as it does, but all of our experience in science thus far indicates that there is likely a natural answer, and I don’t have trouble simply saying “I don’t know, but one day I hope to” and continuing on my way, working towards this goal of one day truly understanding the universe around us.

Indeed I have read parts of the Bible, I haven’t tackled the whole thing straight through yet, though I plan to do so this summer. I’ve also read parts of the Muslim Qur’an, the Hindu Mahabharata, the Buddhist Buddhacarita, the Daoist Dao De Ching and Lao Tzu, and the Confucian Analects. I read them not because I hope to find some meaning from them, but because religion has played such a massive role in the development of human society that I think it is important to understand it. There is nothing particularly exceptional about the Judeo-Christian God. Each system claims itself to hold the ultimate truth. Nonetheless, I’ve never found any relevant meaning in any of them that can’t be explained, or couldn’t likely be explained by natural means.

One thing that we definitely agree on is that atheists lack faith. The difference is that you hold it as a virtue, whereas most of us do not see it as such. Most of us see science as the guiding principle in understanding the truth of the world around us and have no use for faith.

I don’t need there to be some divine or inherent meaning in life to find it meaningful myself. I know merely that I am alive, I’d like to remain that way for some time, and I’d like to be treated with respect by those around me. I try to model my life around this idea, and try to treat others with respect because that is how I would like to be treated.

I find these two objectives, the furthering of knowledge of the universe around us through scientific means, and the improvement of the human condition on earth to be all the meaning I need in life.

By: jjberg on 2008 April 10
at 22:05 UTC

You make some interesting points in that you realize religion has played a major role in society…all around the world. This tells me that it is natural for man to come to the conclusion the there is indeed a divine power. From the most uncivilized tribe of people to the most civilized and educated society….man seeks to know his creator.

May I ask how old you were when you came to the conclusion that there is no God?

You mentioned in an earlier post that if Jesus showed up in your room…you would have a chat with him. Jesus says that I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

You just have to have enough faith to open the door and let him in.

By: Muse on 2008 April 11
at 03:43 UTC

Hi JJ,

Just thought I’d let you know at least one other person has read your comments (Me!), and what lovely comments they are. I think we all make our own meanings in life and for many that involves a protective super daddy, but for me, the fact that we only have a teeny bit of time makes life all the more precious and fab.

Have a gorgeous day,

Lucy

By: Lucy Lowe on 2008 April 11
at 20:28 UTC

haha, thanks Lucy. I agree with you 100%. We get one chance, and that’s more than most get, to quote Richard Dawkins (in case you haven’t noticed I’m sort of a fan)

We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Sahara. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively outnumbers the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here.

We are incredibly fortunate to have this short chance at life, and I think we should make the most of it.

By: jjberg on 2008 April 11
at 20:43 UTC

This life is only a prelude to eternal life. We all shall die…..those who have accepted Christ as their Saviour shall inherit eternal life and those who did not shall inherit eternal damnation. Jesus said I come that you might have life…and have it more abundantly. Without Christ as your Saviour…it is not possible to live life to it’s fullest. Life without Christ is hollow, shallow and meaningless….a life lived with no hope.

By: Muse on 2008 April 11
at 21:33 UTC

Muse,

Once again, I think you are applying your own presuppositions about what it must mean to be an atheist. I draw immense hope from the human spirit (I use that term with care, and by it I do not mean the same thing that religious people would), simply by looking out the window and seeing all that we have accomplished, and knowing that (provided we don’t destroy ourselves first) we have barely reached our potential.

I was just about to post a response to your previous comment, but you beat me to it. The following is the response I had typed up to that one.

I would agree with you to some degree that it is natural for man to develop some sort of religion. This says nothing of the validity of it though. I think that it is likely that religion developed due to the pressures of natural selection. It’s easy to see how many of the common themes in religions all around the world would have been useful to primitive societies. A group mentality of “us vs them” would help individuals within that group survive and pass on their genes, thereby increasing the population with this mentality, children who listened to and followed whatever their parents said, largely without question, certainly would have had a much better chance of surviving in the Savanna desert than those who didn’t, thus the perpetual chain of indoctrination was hardwired into our DNA, individuals who believed that they were enlightened and understood the “TRUTH” or believed that the absolutely knew what the purpose in life was would be more driven by this perceived purpose and more likely to survive and pass on those genes as well. The foundations for religious belief were likely hardwired into our DNA by accident, simply because many of the themes common to all religions were advantageous in the primitive human experience.

I think you’re right to assume that religion would appear in any “uncivilized tribe,” but I think the only reason it persists in educated society is because by simple progression our educated society developed from “uncivilized tribes,” and religions, and Christianity and Islam most of all, are extremely successful memes that have tailored themselves extremely well to being passed on through indoctrination of children too young to think for themselves. This is why I think Christianity is so prevalent in America, not because it is true, but because it is so good at passing its ideology on to children at a very young age.

I can’t really put an age on when I came to the conclusions. I was never really a Christian, but I grew up in a fairly conservative Christian town, so just about everyone I knew was Christian. For a long time I tried to define God in a way that made some sort of rational sense, but however I tried I was never satisfied, because I could always find things that those sorts of beliefs couldn’t quite explain. For all intents and purposes I was an atheist by the time I entered high school, age 14, but I didn’t openly call myself such until probably about a year and a half ago, age 16-17, because of the negative connotations and misconceptions that go along with that word in this country.

The human mind is immensely powerful. There is some extraordinary work being done today in modern philosophy and neuroscience to demonstrate just how much the unconscious levels of our brains deceive us and cause us to perceive reality in strange ways. It is not unsurprising to me then, that on the unconscious level, the brains of believers deceive them into believing they are truly having a conversation with Christ when in fact there is no one on the other end. No, any religion I could ever believe would have to be rooted in fact and evidence, faith offers no reason to believe something to be true other than the subjective appeals of others.

Sorry for pouring an entire essay out, but these are questions that are not easily answered in few words.

By: jjberg on 2008 April 11
at 21:41 UTC

jjberg,

I think religion is a natural and “inborn” into the human being. You said you have immense hope looking at what all man has accomplished and has yet to reach their potential. Solomon in the book of Ecclesiastes set out to prove that everything is vanity. He ask himself this question: What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh under the sun? He never denied himself anything….great wealth, servants, wine, land, he built mansions, wisdom, great pleasure, silver and gold, anything man could imagine in his heart that he thought would make him happy….but in the end he said: Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. There is not hope in man’s accomplishments…they are temporary and will not last.

You are young…use you time and energy to seek out God rather than trying to prove he does not exist. In the book of Acts Jesus appears to Saul..later named Paul and ask him why he persecuted him and told him it is hard to kick against the pricks. Three days later Paul accepted Jesus as his savior and became one of the biggest figures and authors of the New Testament!

By: Muse on 2008 April 13
at 00:03 UTC

Leave a response






Your response:

Categories